Who Makes Theatre?
Who Makes Theatre is a podcast that focuses on the people who work behind the scenes in Theatre. Every fortnight Khadifa Wong will be joined in conversation by members of the Theatre community.
Who Makes Theatre?
From Mary Poppins to the Lion King a 20 Year Journey
Have you ever wondered about the people who make theatre magic happen night after night? The ones you never see but whose work is essential to every performance you've ever loved?
Who Makes Theatre answers those questions. This podcast pulls back the curtain on the hidden world of West End theatre, guided by Khadifa, a dresser with 20 years of backstage experience. This isn't just about costume changes and technical wizardry—it's about the extraordinary community that forms behind the scenes of your favourite shows.
For the very first episode of this podcast series, Khadifa goes full circle, talking to Michael Brown whom she first worked with on Mary Poppins and now twenty years later works with when she deps at Lion King. As the Lion King is one of the shows she currently deps on she decided to launch the podcast with a special double bill, released over two days.
This Lion King special features Michael Brown (Deputy Head of Automation) and Patience Persson (Company Manager), whose journeys reveal both the technical mastery required to mount spectacular productions and the human connections that sustain them. Michael's transition from flyman to automation spans decades of theatrical evolution, while Patience's path from ballet student to performer to company manager demonstrates how representation in theatre continues to evolve.
These conversations explore how theatre creates space for authenticity and connection while challenging lingering barriers to diversity and inclusion.
Whether you're a theatre professional, an aspiring artist, or simply curious about what happens beyond the footlights, these stories will transform how you experience your next performance.
Special thanks to the management at the Lion King and Disney Theatrical for supporting the show. Both episodes were recorded at The Lyceum Theatre - substage and in the office.
Subscribe now to hear from those making theatre a better place, one show at a time.
Welcome to who makes theatre a podcast that answers that question by celebrating and showcasing the people that work behind the scenes on some of our biggest musicals and plays. My name is Khadifa and over the course of this series I'm going to be talking to people that I have worked with during my time as a dresser on West End musicals and plays. So, before we get into the conversations with people, a little bit about me and why I'm making this podcast. 2024 was my 20th year of being a dresser. I haven't always done it. I've done it on and off, and I've stepped away to do film and stepped away to travel, but essentially, my main job in theatre has been as a dresser.
Khadifa:I trained as a dancer and in 2004, my best friend was working on a musical called Tonight's the Night, which was a Rod Stewart musical at the Victoria Palace Theatre, and she called me up one day. I was working two days a week as a receptionist and needed another job, and she said, hey, they need someone tonight. Would you be interested? And I've got to be honest, I didn't really know what a dresser did. She just told me it was something to do with costumes, and so I went along to see what it was about, and that job changed my life. It was six months of fun, laughter, of self-discovery of some incredible people. I Just remember laughing a lot in that time, and since then I've gone on to work on shows like Mary Poppins, we Will Rock you, the Lion King, Guys and Dolls, Showboat, The Girls and Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, and every single one of those shows gave me something, taught me something or allowed me to experience something truly unique, and so, along with the other people that I've worked with, I want to share some of those stories with you and hope that it will inspire other people to come into theatre, and I hope that this will lift a lid on what life is like for people that do spend their lives in this wonderful art form.
Khadifa:The other significant thing about 2024 was not just that it was an anniversary for me, it was also the year in which we lost Gavin Creel, and Gavin Creel is important to me because I was his dresser on Mary Poppins when he first played the role of Bert, and he was truly one of the best people I ever got the honor of dressing and working with, and what Gavin did on that show that was really special was really do his best to create community on that show. He had donut day on a Saturday where he would bring in donuts for everybody. He knew I loved a plain glazed, so he would always save that for me and I would find it wrapped up in a serviette hidden somewhere about his dressing room. For me to find it was little things like that that made you feel very valued and feel like a true part of his community. He made us do Halloween, booing everybody's dressing rooms. We also threw him a Thanksgiving in his dressing room and when I went to Gavin's memorial I already had the idea of the podcast in my head, but I didn't know what it was going to be or what shape it was going to take and just knowing you know, as the type of person that Gavin is, there was a quote from his that was on the, on the little leaflet that we got as we walked into the church and thank you, Gavin.
Khadifa:But there was the direction that I was needing and I feel like that was one last gift from you to everybody in theatre and the quote that Gavin had, I think really exemplifies what I want this podcast to be and what I hope you will get from listening. So, in Gavin's words, "the show was fun, the music was great, but it was about the people I was with. We were all in a common, passionate goal to tell a story. I wanted that for a living. I wanted to be a part of that for my life. I think everyone you're going to hear from in this podcast lives up to those words, and the reason why I've chosen the people that I've chosen in this first series are because they, through their presence, are making gains in theatre, pushing down boundaries, or they are making theatre a better place to be, and they have really made a difference to my experience in theatre and to the people's experience around them, and so I hope you're going to enjoy listening to their conversations, and I hope you're going to enjoy getting a glimpse into a side of theatre that isn't often seen.
Khadifa:So, to kick things off, I am doing a Lion King special. The reason why I'm doing a Lion King special is that is one of the shows I'm currently a dep on. It is also a pivotal show in my career. I joined it in 2019 as a dep in the wardrobe department, and it was the first time in my entire time of theatre that I was not in the minority, and that was truly empowering for me. It's. It's not an understatement to say that there's so few of us in theatre, and that comes with challenges of sometimes feeling alone, sometimes having to experience microaggressions and sometimes having to just experience a feeling of otherness and outsidedness. But the Lion King was the first time where I never had any of those feelings, because the show is made up of so many elements of the Black and Global Majority diaspora.
Khadifa:I felt really comfortable in this building, and so I'm kicking off this series with four wonderful people. I'm going to be speaking to Michael Brown, who's Deputy Head of Automation, who I also worked with on Mary Poppins, so I thought it was very fit that he would be my very first interview. Shennika Hermanstyne, a dresser, Patience Persson, the company manager, and Jo Merchant, as part of crew. I hope you're really going to enjoy their stories. They are wonderful people that are doing an amazing job on such a wonderful show and I hope you enjoy it. My first guest on the podcast is Michael Brown, who is deputy head ofation at the Lion King. He and I first worked together on Mary Poppins back in 2005, and he was one of the people that suggested that I come to the Lion King. Welcome to the podcast, Michael Hi. So let's start at the beginning. What was it that got you into theatre in the first place?
Michael:By accident I did a degree in a subject that's got nothing not directly related to theatre, but I wasn't thinking about, I was kind of thinking along the lines of becoming an academic. I studied philosophy and history of ideas and anyway, when I left college, after I graduated, I became a visiting lecturer in FE, teaching uh, three or four subjects, um, I did that for two and a half years. So a visiting lecturer means I I wasn't really on the payroll. I didn't get paid holidays or health and care and what not healthcare was it? Um benefits and all that kind of stuff. I kind of got disillusioned with it.
Michael:I went into it thinking I can, because you know my background working class, Caribbean and I thought I'd go and help my community. But after doing it for a couple of years I realized it wasn't really necessarily helping the young men and women of my community. They weren't even that much younger than me. I was just putting them. They weren't really learning. . They weren't really learning anything. I was just. It was like a sausage machine. It was just trying to push, push, uh, just force feed them some so they can churn out to pass an exam and I suppose I went through that process myself, but I didn't really realize it at the time. But seeing it from that perspective, I thought, no. This doesn't inspire me.
Michael:So I left and I happened to get a job in retail, fashion retail, which was exciting at first, in Covent Garden, which was the center of London's street fashion and magazines like the Face and all that were emerging. I even ended up being in the Face as centre spread of the face at one point. But after six months I got completely bored of it. At first it was exciting parties, meeting Kate Moss, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And then I thought, no, no, I'm not, this is just killing me.
Michael:And I happened to have some friends who I went to college with, who worked at the Shaftesbury Theatre. They were working as crew and I said to one of them you've got to get me out of here, you've got to get me a job in theatre. I had no idea what it was going to be like and he said, yeah, ok, I'll have a word with someone. And then a new show came into the theatre it was Carousel, was coming into the theatre and there happened to be a job for me and my friend at the time was the deputy master carpenter and he happened to get six other college friends as part of the crew. So basically the crew was mostly people I knew.
Khadifa:So what was your first?
Michael:job and how I was part of the crew, but I, specifically, was a flyman and I loved it. I learned to become a very good flyman, in fact, and I still miss it, because it's like real hands-on, it's a real skill involved.
Khadifa:For people that don't know what a flyman is, just give me an outline.
Michael:Basically, when you go to see a show, you see these bits of scenery that fly in from, Fly I'm using the same terminology that come in from the top, land on the stage and they go out as well. They come in and they go out and basically a flyman is someone who's pulling on a rope to bring them in and take them out. That's basically it. So, yeah, I became a flyman and then that show finished after about a year and then I did the next show and I was a flyman again and then I left that theatre to join the Royal Court and I was there for two years and obviously it's a lot smaller. They did brand new plays. It was really exciting stuff, you know, and met a few up-and-coming actors that are now household names um, Andy Sirkis and Aiden Gillen, guy called Matt Bardock, and um, Tom Hollander and basically that and uh, Janet McTeer she's quite big now as well, um, but uh, yeah. So that was exciting and we got a lot closer to everyone because it's got involved in more aspects of the theater. So we did a little bit of a lecture, a little bit of sound this, you know it was because it was a lot smaller. So I did that for two years.
Michael:And then uh, and then I came back to the Shaftesbury and what did I work on? Uh, I can't remember what it was. I think it might have been Tommy, yeah, and then some of my friends had started to leave to go on other shows. A friend of mine became head of automation on Saigon, another one joined him on Saigon, another one joined him on Saigon, another one went on tour with Phantom. And then my friend Skegsy, who got me into theatre, he ended up going on tour.
Michael:And then the production manager for the Les Mis tour at the time asked whether I'd be interested in uh going on tour and I said I know nothing about tour, I'm a london boy, I don't live anywhere else. And then my master carpenter said to me Mike, you'll love it, you'll really enjoy it. I think you should go for it. So, reluctantly, I, I went for it and it's I. It's one of the best experiences of my life. I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of that. There were stressful moments, yeah, but I still look back in fondness and I've made lifelong friends from that, from that to all people, that always it always brings a warm feeling when I see them or, you know, contact from Facebook or whatever, and so, yeah, and I was like one of the carpentry department there's three of us and I did that for two years. It was just a UK tour.
Khadifa:Which show do you think it was that kind of said to you that this is what I'm going to do,
Michael:My very first show definitely Carousel. I fell in love with it. Yeah, I was gripped from there, gripped from there, totally. What do love with it? Yeah, I was gripped from there, gripped from there.
Khadifa:Totally. What do you think it was about Theatre?
Michael:There's a lot of fun in theatre. You can work really hard but there's so much fun you can have and there's so many interesting people. I'm not saying if you work in an office or if you work, that there aren't interesting people, but in theatre you're allowed to express that. You know, in terms of how you dress and in terms of your interest, you're allowed to express it, you're allowed to be more yourself. I think, and I think that's what I enjoyed the most and I don't know, also it's the hours you work. I mean, it's a bit more difficult now because I'm an older man and I've got responsibilities, family and that, but when I was younger, like you'd finish work at 10 and you'd be out, you know, and have fun, and you'd be going home at 4 o'clock in the morning, not every night, but several nights a week. You know you'd be having fun.
Michael:It's a great thing, for in those days it was a great thing for a young person to be involved in and I guess you could make a living and make a life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I burnt my money in those days. We used to get paid in cash, we used to get these round envelopes and it was like you've got all this money and you just go to bars and pubs and meet you know girls or whatever, and meet new people and meet other people from other shows, and like go down to a place that no longer exists called the Green Room, yeah, which is just off the Strand it used to be and I met what's his name?
Michael:Dumbledore, the original Dumbledore,
Khadifa:oh, Richard Harris
Michael:Richard Harris. I met Richard Harris and he remembered my friend from, because at the time I was at the Royal Court and we were down there, and he remembered my friend from when he did a play there and he brought us a Guinness. We had a chat with Richard Harris because at the time, I think he lived at Savoy. He used to live at Savoy, so it was just a little walk down for him. It was just, yeah, I just loved the life. I loved it and it's hard work. You know, it's not always easy.
Khadifa:Thinking about, because you know the span of time that you've been in theatre. What was the theatre world like when you started? Versus now, what are the differences?
Michael:It had less of a corporate feel. It was much more. It was freer. You know, I worked on in my early years. I worked mostly on Cameron Mackintosh shows and it was so free and easy. Then I could walk to number one, Bedford Square, knock on the door and go in and and say hello to at the time I think the head of marketing was called a woman, called Sue Ewing. You could just do that and I was just lowly crew person, you know so you think it was a lot more integrated back then yeah, I just think, It just didn't feel like a business in the. It always has been a business, but it didn't feel like like a business. It's hard to explain, it just felt. I mean, there are a lot of things that are good about modern theatre the safety aspect. I'm all for that, because people do some crazy stuff in my day. You know people taking substances and stuff. So I'm glad that a lot of that kind of culture's gone now. The drinking culture you know, people used to drink and then come in and do a show. It's like I don't know how you can do that now, you know, and I think it's brilliant that that's been kind of stamped out. Everything is a double-edged sword and there's more rules and regulations you have to follow, which is good on the one hand, but on the other hand sometimes it's a bit too rigid, I think.
Khadifa:I feel like now even just applying for a job feels like an exercise in corporate speak. Yes, absolutely yeah, as opposed to, as you say, you and I both got into theatre because we knew someone. Yeah, yeah, and it found us in a way, I guess, and on the one hand I wondered does that level the playing field? But maybe we wouldn't have got in if we hadn't been vouched for.
Michael:We probably wouldn't have done. Yeah, yeah.
Khadifa:Because I had zero experience when I started, so you know.
Michael:But I think there's still room for that. It's just that you still that. It's just I think that still does happen. You know someone, you know. It's just that there's more formality, but you know you have. It's just that there's more formality, yeah, but you know you have to put in your cv and and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes you've got to fill in forms and it's gonna, you know do you still look for that when you're hiring someone?
Michael:no, I don't think so. I think obviously we will look for the suitable candidate, but then that particular person we have to. We have to answer to people above us, so they still have to fill in forms and sign non-disclosures and all this kind of stuff, formalities that protect the show. I suppose they protect the integrity of the show that I work on. These things are important. If something happens down the line, then who's liable? So everyone needs to know their place and what's important. So you know I am for it, but it's just sometimes it just it does seem to get in the way a bit. Yeah, some of the magic's gone, some of the I don't know, some of the looseness has gone, some of the.
Khadifa:Yeah, I know what you mean. How did you make the transition from flyman to automation? Was it a quick or a slow transition?
Michael:When I was on tour. Uh, we had some automation on the tour and, as I said, everyone on the tour, we were all close and I left the tour because I basically on when I was on a tour, I was in a relationship with someone and they left the tour. They were a performer and they wanted to pursue their creative interest, whatever. And I stayed on the tour because I was still enjoying myself. But it was a strain on the relationship because it was long distance. So I decided I was persuaded to come back to London. So I did and I got, and then I was offered again.
Michael:I was offered, a production manager, offered me a job on Oklahoma, and I said what does it entail? He said, oh, you'd be part of the stage management team. I said I know nothing about Stage Management and he said, oh, no, it's okay. Um, what we require you to do is be downstage right in the corner and you've got this little console and you press a button, you turn it on and the revolve spins. And then there's another control, a separate control, that controls this almost like a net curtain and that sweeps across the front of the stage. It's more like a gauze that sweeps across the stage and that's it, that's your job, okay. So I thought, okay, I'll be a part stage management team.
Michael:So it wasn't really stage management that I did, and I did that and that was oklahoma, um, and that was here. This very building in a show prior to this one. So that was kind of my basic introduction to it was like really basic stuff. It wasn't proper automation. And then the show got its notice. Some I'm not sure how long, maybe, maybe eight, nine months or something Hugh Jackman was in that show and name dropped again. Oh sweet, that was before he hit the big time in Hollywood. He's a really nice guy, really nice guy. But anyway, and my friend I was on tour with was basically he was doing automation on a show at the Aldwych and I said to him would it be okay if I joined you or whatever?
Michael:And he said yeah great, come along, I'll teach you. So basically, that's my first automation show and it was Whistle Down the Wind.
Khadifa:I remember that show.
Michael:Yeah, a lot of fun people on that show as well. Stage management were great.
Khadifa:I think that's the thing, because sometimes we forget, behind whatever reviews or whatever perception of the show was, there's a whole community that had a great time on whatever show it was and there was. You know, when it comes to an end it's sad because, as you say, your memories of that show would be completely different.
Khadifa:To say what, I guess the public memory of that show would be completely different to say what I guess the public memory of that show would be yeah, yeah
Michael:And again, there's not deep friendships, but there's the heart, connections between people that I've worked with, and if I saw them, it'd be a hug, it would be a smile, be like remember that moment, this and the other it'd be. It's brilliant. I love it. Facebook has been a great way for me to reconnect with some of those people, because, oh my God, I forgot all about that person. Yeah, but yeah, I made great connections on that show and I learned first how to operate a show in automation properly on that show, and then the next one to come in was Secret Garden. I did that as well. And then I went to do the Witches of Eastwick and that was a big automation show and that was proper scary that was that your moment of like. Okay, this is like an initiation if you had to perform flying. You're seeing those three of them, three witches flying, which is flying? And yeah, that was big. And then my then partner got pregnant and then, after the baby was born, after six months, we decided that it was best for our household if I became a house dad. So I did that. So I left the theater kicking and screaming and I had to adjust to being at home every day with baby my first born and then, 20 months later, another one came along. So I was a house dad for about four or five years
Khadifa:wow, so you had quite a gap.
Michael:I had a gap. Yeah, yeah, didn't do. And the transition out of theater was the hardest thing in my life, you know apart from losing parents. You know into grief, but just in terms of having to change and adapt was the hardest moment of my life was leaving theater to being at home all day and then, um, the transition from being at home all day to getting back into theatre, that was really really difficult for me. I found that really, you know, because you lose confidence.
Michael:I mean, you hear, you hear a lot of that with women yeah that you know they've been out of the workforce and then they have to go back to work and it's like I'm not quite, and that's exactly how I felt how easy was it to get back in, like in terms of the head of automation on that show and that was Poppins.
Michael:In fact, where we met, yeah, yeah, my head of automation on Witches of Eastwick, and I messaged him. I said, Alex, you remember me. Uh, he said yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said something funny. He said, yeah, yeah, come in as a dep.
Michael:So I started depping for them and then, uh, people from the department started leaving. He kept on saying to me uh, can you go full time, can you go full time? And I was saying, well, you know, they want me to go full time on this other show. You know I was talking to another um that my then partner was on as well, so it would've been both of us on the same show. And then another person left and the guy that I was meant to replace on the other show. He was basically he wanted to leave to become a fireman and I think he'd qualified, but he wasn't quite sure when he was leaving or something, and it was like he was messing everyone around. So I decided to take the job at Poppins full time and and there you go, and that was so much fun that show such a fun show.
Khadifa:I still have a picture of us with Zinedine Zidane yeah, like me.
Michael:That's what that is. Oh, my god, I can see it. Yeah, because what happened was one of the chaperones he. I don't know how we got a hold of it, but there was a photograph that Stuart remember Stuart in the fly's big hair. He took a photograph of just me and Zidane, because I've never been starstruck by anyone. You know, we meet loads of celebs. I've never been starstruck by anyone, but it was Zidane and I'm a massive football fanatic, so he was like. So I came down and I think I've scared him because I has like a big grin on my face. Stewart took the photo and one of the chaperones was he's a bit of an artist and he. Somehow he surprised me on my last day because I left to come here on my last day. He gave me that and it's just a copy of a photograph he got hold of.
Khadifa:That's amazing.
Khadifa:I still remember I've never seen so many men starstruck as the day that Zidane came in and, like all, crowding the stage like fangirls.
Michael:You love football, you love Zidane.
Khadifa:Yeah. It was an amazing day. I remember that's one of my favorites.
Michael:On this show we've met Henri, Ian Wright. But Zidane though, anyway, yeah, so I can't remember where I was well,
Khadifa:We get to Poppins.
Khadifa:That's where I met you was on Poppins and I just remember feeling very happy that I wasn't alone
Michael:Well, you know, Sean Perkins.
Michael:You know what our nickname for each other was Black, we used to call each other. You know what our nickname for each other was Black, we used to call each other. Black. We used to point at each other and go Black.
Khadifa:Because it was, so you know, so rare, so rare. And I think that's where I'm very grateful to you for suggesting coming here, because, again, that was I think the first time in my whole time in theatre that I wasn't the, not just the only one, but was in the majority, I guess yeah yeah, and felt like, everywhere you looked, you were, you were, you were in company yeah and how different an experience that was in theatre
Michael:And this show is very unique in that respect, and most People of Colour say the same thing. It's just like you don't feel you can walk through certain spaces and not notice your own colour.
Khadifa:Yeah.
Michael:You know, it's like it doesn't become a, it's not a, it's not part of the conversation, it's not a big deal. There are cultural things, things like if I see Sean, some of our Jamaican references come to the surface, but other than that, it's just not.
Khadifa:Do you think this is the place where you've been able to be yourself the most?
Michael:That's a good question.
Michael:I've not thought of it. It's hard to say because what's the word that they use? It's like you adapt to your circumstances. So I feel as if I'm pretty much always myself, but a different aspect of myself will come to the surface given what's in front of me. So if I'm among certain friends, more of my london accent comes, comes to the surface. And I've become even more so since working with my, my boss, because he's very sort of London talking and I think it's affected the way I speak. Even, yeah, I was like I go home and I think, oh, my God, where's that coming from? And it's because I've worked with him so many years. But I don't think I've not been myself anywhere. I've just yeah, it's just certain.
Khadifa:I like the way you say aspects, because I think that's exactly what it is, isn't it? That we can be a certain part, but it will just bring out certain parts of ourselves that maybe we felt like we had to mask in one show that we didn't in another, depending on what the circumstances of the show
Michael:I mean I can have those conversations more here now than in other shows because of the you know something that we will recognize.
Michael:If someone who's got a similar background to me will recognize something and we can talk about it discreetly, and it's not as if we're hiding anything, it's just that we know that person will understand. We won't have to explain what we mean when we say that. And so, yeah, there's a freedom in that. There's definitely a freedom in having more people of color around you on a daily basis.
Khadifa:So, thinking about the job that you do for people that don't know about automation, What is a typical day? And what I'm hoping this podcast will do is encourage and shine a light on what we do backstage as well. What's a typical day like for you? What does your job actually entail?
Michael:Well, our department, basically, we basically move the scenery. It's basically computer-operated scene changing. So we will press a button and something will happen on stage a hole will emerge on stage. Something will fly in. It's not. It's not people pulling on ropes anymore, it's a machine driving it.
Michael:So on a typical day we'll come in and we'll we'll check that everything is moving fine and everything is going from A to B, accurately. So if something's got to move 10 meters, our screen will tell us that it's moved 10 meters and then our eyes will tell us that that's in the right place. So you've got two references. You've got the computer screen telling you and you've got someone on stage saying yeah, that's a matchup. So we say yeah, that's, that's, that's match, that's a match up. So we know, at least at this point, everything's moving fine. You know it could change during the show condition. You know in the actual show, who knows, something could happen that you can't foresee. Um, so we'll do that and then we'll come back and we'll move stuff for the crew, because the crew need to set things. They can't access it without us being here, so we we'll just move it for them, put them in a position where they can access, do what they need to do, and then we'll fly it out or put it back again.
Michael:And then comes the show. And in the show we sit at a desk, we've got a set of. We're connected by radio, if you like. These ones are hardwired and there's someone who sits at a desk in the wing on a perch. Normally it's a DSM, but they also have other people that have learnt the book and they call the show, and what that means is they say let's cue this, which is a lighting cue, auto-cue that, and we have to press buttons on their direction, basically. So, for instance, on this show, the first cue down here is the rock coming up. So I'll press a button to bring the rock up and now. But I have to go on their cue, even though I've done it for years and I know when it's coming. Yeah, you still, you've still got to, you've got to wait.
Michael:I mean there could be things that you can't see, that someone else can see, and they can say, don't, don't call it, or whatever. So we go on on the DSM's go, we get a standby, which is a verbal standby, and we get a visual stand by with a red light there and then, uh, on the go, when the person says go, we get the green light as well. Most of the time it goes smoothly. Sometimes it doesn't. I mean, you know, there's human error, a momentary lack of concentration. There could be something wrong with the software, there could be something wrong mechanically, you know, and that's when people say live theatre, I mean, anything can happen. And it's not just you know, it happens, every department has that, you know.
Michael:A puppet could break, a costume could fail, you know, and it's part of the excitement, it's part of the stress as well, you know.
Khadifa:So if someone wants to, if someone wants to sort of pursue this department specifically, what would you advise them to do to kind of get to get their foot in the door? What skills should they have to succeed in this role?
Michael:I think that I still. I mean, there are courses now, when I started automation, there were no courses available. But now these drama schools are offering courses Guildhall and what's the one in Kingston but they all offer courses. Traditionally, they would teach them light and sound, stage management, but now they're automation courses, so there are schemes that, like our show is currently running an apprentice scheme, and you know there's work experience.
Michael:You know, the other day a friend of mine who I was on tour with, her Son, he's now 23 or 24 and he's got a degree in in engineering. He was, he doesn't quite know what to do yet, but he was considering maybe theatre. So she asked me, would, would I be able to show him what I do and stuff? And I asked the relevant people upstairs and said yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, sure, yeah. So he had to obviously do the formalities, you know, fill in the forms and blah, blah. And he came last Thursday and followed me around. He can only do some. He wants to do it more, but he's got this job in a restaurant, so he can't really do it all the time, but he wants to do a lot more and I think he may have uh found something that he likes what kind of impression do you like?
Khadifa:What was his reaction?
Michael:Actually he loved it, he was, he was loving it. He was, getting it? He was getting it. That's the thing you could see. You can always tell when someone's getting it. There's a something and I can't really put my finger on it, because not everyone you know it's. I mean, we've just had an upgraded system and the old system was completely different to this. It was one button pushing. This one's multi-button pushing, yeah, which is what I was used to when I first started out, and then I learnt our previous system here and I couldn't get my head round it. It was really messing me up, and then I finally got used to it and then I had to come back to this kind of system again, but he was getting it straight away and he may have that kind of a mind. I don't know, but he loved it and I think he might look towards coming into it. And there are shortage of automation operators.
Michael:Shows are always struggling to find automation operators.
Khadifa:Why do you think there's a shortage of automation?
Michael:I don't know, I don't know why, of all the departments, the shortages are with automation. I mean, I sometimes get people. Do you know anyone who can blah, blah, blah? Do you know anyone who can do this? And I say no, I'm sorry, I don't know, I don't know.
Khadifa:So for anyone sort of umming and are maybe in other departments of theatre, what could you say to them to kind of maybe convince them to switch and move from animation?
Michael:I'm not sure I'd get them to do that. It can be scary. That's the thing it can be. It's not like I'm not saying the other, there aren't any. I mean, you know, a sound person can bring up the wrong mic or whatever and that sounds horrible, but you're not endangering lives when you do that. Again, the lighting department can press the wrong button and the wrong light comes on and you're not really. But we are creating holes in the stage. We are landing things from above with people on the stage. So exactly, yeah, so yeah, modern theatre is a very dangerous place because people have to trust performers have to trust that the technicians around them are keeping them safe. I mean on this show, it has performer flying and you know they have to allow themselves to fall from great heights online and it's that's that's tremendous trust. I mean I would hate to. I mean I've done performer flying on shows, but I wouldn't want to do this one.
Khadifa:So is there still a sort of element of creativity that you need for it, even though, it's say, technical?
Michael:Sometimes I mean, if we have a problem, sometimes the solution is not as straightforward as you know, and sometimes you do need to have that creative mind to sort of figure out a solution. I mean we're lucky we have a team of people behind us that are really helpful, the people that install our new system. They can access the system remotely. Brilliant. Basically, they can go online, log into our system and detect any kind of at least computational problems, which is great, and they can actually change stuff. They can actually go in there and change stuff,
Khadifa:Which is very corporate, like having that sort of company!
Michael:Yeah, yeah, it does, it does, it does, it does. But I'm I'm happy to have that because, um, this system is a lot more complicated than our old system. The old system was a bit more brutal. If it had an issue, it would just try to push through it, whereas this one will stop because it's a proper control system, it's safer. I guess it's a lot safer. It's a lot safer and it's a good thing, and I actually am excited about this system. There's so much more to learn and I didn't think I'd get excited about stuff like that again, but I am excited about it.
Khadifa:So, as we come to the end of our conversation, which has been wonderful, you started by saying you wanted to make a difference and you wanted to educate. And as you look back on your life over theatre, do you think actually you were able to. You've actually done that, but just not in the way you thought, possibly?
Michael:Um, well, at the very least, your presence means that you have, I guess, pioneered and, for the community, seeing you do this job and in this position, well, yeah, I never thought of it that way, but, um, I suppose, uh, it's, it's, it's possible that I mean, when I was at college, there were very few black faces in my college, you know, I think there were four black men in the whole of our site. Sorry, our college was divided into different sites, divided into different sites, and I would say we had about a hundred, no, 300 people, maybe more 400 people on our site on a regular basis and I think I met six black people. But, uh, yeah. When I first came to even in the fashion retail, you would have thought, but there wasn't, there wasn't that many.
Michael:And then, obviously, in theatre, there. But now you see a lot more. You see a lot more workers in front of house, you see, uh, even, obviously, the performers. This, it's always been that way. But just checking out your department, and it's just, that's been a radical change, even in terms of the leadership
Khadifa:Yeah, absolutely.
Khadifa:Summing up your life in theater as a whole, what? What's your overarching kind of memory or feeling about everything from then to now, because you made a life for yourself.
Michael:Wow, a single memory. You know it's going to sound very corny, but it's easy when you work on a show every day, especially I've been here, I think, 17 or 18 years to get really like. But when I give a backstage tour and you see the excitement of someone who's like, oh, wow, that's how that works, and look at that costume, this and up close and wow that I leave the theater buzzing. And I still do. I leave the theater buzzing after I've given. If I had to give it every day, maybe I'll feel different. But but, um, yeah, I mean, I gave one last week and it always reminds me oh, oh, my God, this is why I'm doing it, this is what I'm doing. I'm not just doing it to pay my bills, this is what I'm doing.
Michael:So that is, I think, a thing for me, and I just love the fact that you can go around, walk around, be yourself, have a laugh with someone, and you know most people in theater are a little bit let me use the four letter word woke. Yeah, they're a little bit woke, some more woke than others, but they're generally a little bit woke. It's always traditionally given space to anyone in the LGBTQ community for one. Um, definitely has paved a way. It's changed for uh for real now, I'd say, but it's definitely played lip service to our issues.
Michael:iven, it's played lip service at least it's always done that, but I think it is, but it has. It's actually making it, yeah, um, so that makes it a much. that's what makes it feels like a safer space. If I was working in the city, I don't think I'd feel that way, even you know, even if I was. Like uh, I've got a friend whose brother is like a corporate lawyer to Jamaican parentage, corporate lawyer, gets bonuses of millions, a total Tory, and he's an ultra-Christian and I still think that he knows that behind his back, after all that he's got all the trappings, does all the right things. He's on par with the current leader of the Conservative Party.
Khadifa:So you've got, I think, the most fulfilling life.
Michael:Yeah, I've got a richer life because I'm in a space where people are willing to embrace difference.
Khadifa:Yeah, and I think that's the perfect note to end that one thank you very much thank you.
Khadifa:Thank you once again to Michael for being my first guest. I really appreciate it. My second guest is just as wonderful. Patience Persson is the Company Manager for the Lion King, and we have a great conversation that encompasses a career that spans both being on stage and behind the scenes. I also want to take this opportunity before our next interview to thank Disney Theatrical and the Lyceum Theatre for their support in making this podcast. I've been meeting people where they're at. So, Michael, we recorded in the bunker at the theatre, and Patience's interview is recorded in her office, and so let's move on to our next interview. Patience, welcome to the show.
Patience:Hello,
Khadifa:Thank you so much for this. This is very. This is very surreal and fun because we have a very, very cool history, don't we, like our sisters, are the ones that have the main history because they went to school together.
Khadifa:But you ended up in a show with my sister, which is what made me think of you, because now you're company manager on the show that I'm working on, so it's a really nice, interesting journey. So before we go into the work you do today, let's just get a little bit of background as to what your previous career was, which led you to sitting in this chair today.
Patience:Okay, how far back would you like to go?
Khadifa:Oh, how far back. I guess the moment that theatre was your life, in whichever capacity it was Okay.
Patience:I'd say from a very, very, very young age I'd wanted to dance. I mean, ballet was my favorite, it was my preference. And from my background, growing up we didn't have a lot of money, we didn't come from a lot of money, so when I'd mentioned to my parents I wanted to dance, specifically ballet, they'd said, well, it's not something that we can afford, it wouldn't be possible. Um, and I was also exposed to quite a lot of Irish dancing at the primary school that I went to as well. There's quite a big Irish community and I was also enthralled by that. I loved, you know what they wore for their competitions, the hair, and then coming to school on a Monday with all the trophies that they'd won at the competition. So yeah, I think the Irish dance and the ballet were my first kind of I'd say kind of close to tastes of theatre or live performance. And around the age of eight years old, the Royal Ballet had started a project called Chance to Dance.
Khadifa:Oh, I remember that project.
Patience:Yes, and I was the first cohort of children to be part of that project. So I remember we had an audition. In inverted commas, I think a letter had gone out to our parents the week before to say that there would be an audition. We were told it was a regular PE lesson and we were. You know, we were kind of tested on jumps and stretching and other bits and pieces.
Patience:And then I think I believe later on that day there are a couple of ballet dancers that came to our school to do a kind of a lecture demonstration, a pas de deux from Sleeping Beauty, and we were all just mouths open. You know, she was in her tutu, her pointe shoes and I think, yeah, also, from that point it was like I definitely want to do this. And I think the following week we're then told a few of us have been selected to have ballet classes at a local hall once a week, which I absolutely loved. It was amazing. All my dreams had come true.
Patience:I think a year or so had passed and because a few of us were doing well, we were invited to audition for the Royal Ballet School Junior Associates. I got a place to do that, so that was an additional ballet class on a Saturday, so we'd have ballet on a Tuesday with Chance to Dance Saturday at the Royal Ballet's lower school I mean no, it was the upper school in Hammersmith and then, as you know, it kind of continued and went on and I think I ended up kind of doing four years at Chance to Dance before being um asked to audition for Royal Ballet school itself, um to go there for secondary school.
Patience:Maybe five or six, seven I was eight when I started dancing. Yeah, so yeah, for kind of secondary school time, that was possibly an option. And also the Arts Ed school that's what it was called at the time in Tring Park and the Arts Educational school in London where our sisters went. Yeah, so I auditioned for the Royal Ballet School. I wasn't successful. My heart was broken because it was my dream to go there.
Patience:But then I auditioned for arts educational schools in London and also in Tring Park and I got offered a place at both.
Patience:But I wanted to go to. I wanted to live the dream and go to ballet school, like you hear in the ballet books and you know, be with your friends and board and all the rest of it and be in the countryside and um, yeah, I went there. That was, I went there from the age of 11 up into the age of 15 and it was more than I could dream or could have imagined. We were very, very busy. We worked really, really hard but managed to do our academic work as well as our dance as well. Um, but then kind of post GCSEs, as much as I enjoyed being there, I had the option to either stay on for sixth form or, as a few of my friends were doing the auditioning for other schools, for kind of sixth form. I guess more catered towards the kind of area of dance or drama you wanted to go into. Some of my friends wanted to do technical theatre, some wanted to do more acting. So I auditioned to stay at Tring for sixth form and I also auditioned for, I think, Northern Ballet School. Those were the two and I got offered a place at Northern Ballet School in Manchester and I think at that time I was kind of like I'd enjoyed being at Tring. But this is like the next step, more independence away from far, far away from London, having to live like a university student kind of sounded exciting. And there's one other girl from my school that was going, but I didn't really know anyone else in Manchester at all. So, yeah, ended up going there.
Patience:Um, it's normally a three-year course, but my friend and myself were given two years because of our prior training at Tring. Um loved that course, loved being in Manchester, felt very, very adult and managed to meet, you know, a huge new set of friends and people from different backgrounds as well, very, very different to the people that I went to Tring Park with, yes, which was amazing. And then I managed to work as well while I was at college too. So I had the opportunity to do there's like a Celebrity or a Eurovision stars in their eyes performance that some of us managed to appear in and a couple of music videos. It kind of felt, you know, we're still training, we're still at college, but we're working as well and getting a taste of what life could be like once graduating.
Patience:And once I graduated from Northern Ballet School I did come back down to London because that's where all the auditions were and are. So I remember auditioning for the Lion King I think it must have been three times, and what is funny was when I was at Tring. I remember the Lion King coming to London after it opened on Broadway, yeah, and I can't remember what our topic was for our GCSE art exam, but I think mine involved animals of some sort and I take inspiration from the show coming over from Broadway to kind of create this painting, slash drawing, of Nala thinking you know, one day I really want to be in that show. I love the fact that it featured a Multicultural cast and was really diverse.
Khadifa:I think it was one of the first like, because I remember it coming and everyone being like oh, there's opportunity in this show that we didn't have before.
Patience:No, absolutely, because you'd see, you'd go to auditions and see the other person of colour there and it'd be like, well, there'll only be one of us in the show. We wouldn't both be in the show, you know, and there weren't many shows that were even open to us back then. There were very, very few. So, yes, as you said, it was a very, very exciting thing and there was a whole buzz, you know, within the dance community, particularly within us, you know, global majority artists kind of being like you know who's going to get it, what's it going to look like, how are they going to cast it? So, yes, I think I auditioned for the Lion King three times before I got offered a place and your Sister is in my last audition. So it was. It was actually quite exciting to know somebody coming into the show as well, and I ended up doing six years as a performer in Lion King, absolutely loved it. It was just, yeah, I, it was beyond the dream come true and the friends that I made and people that I met as well and you know people always say it sounds corny, but it is. This company is like a family, because you know people leave and they come back, or even when you've left, you're always embraced again and, yeah, it was just. I remember even the first day of going in for the meet and greet and just the. It was just like a warm hug, like the welcome that you got from everybody and sitting there hearing the read-through and hearing the songs you know, in that room for the first time. Yeah, even thinking about it now, you know it is quite emotional, it's so, so beautiful and also getting to meet and, I think, for the first time, feeling proud of my heritage, rather than shying away from it because I'm sure that you'd probably agree from the background in dance and the places and environments that you were in, you were kind of made to feel that you had to blend in, not really talk about it, kind of slightly deny it, because you didn't want to stand out for the wrong reasons or stand out at all. You wanted to kind of be like everyone else. Yeah, and I felt for the first time like, yeah, in that room and doing the show as a performer and with you know South Africa, people from Brazil, you know all over the world, all parts of you, know the planet, actually feeling proud and the show celebrated that. Yes, it celebrated its Blackness, it celebrated his you know ethnicity, from the costumes to the music, just everything. It was just, yeah, it's so beautiful and so special.
Patience:So, um, I think, trying to think now timeline because it's been so long, um, I think maybe my fourth year in the show as a performer, I got pregnant, had my first child and I think I took about six months off and came back into the show and I was so happy and proud of myself for being able to do that as well, because I think, you know, for some performers, particularly with the hours working, evenings and having children, it's quite tricky and difficult to navigate. But I wanted to see if I could do it and I tried, you know, for a year or so and then it was kind of you know, she's very, very young still it did prove to be quite tricky. So, kind of towards the end of my fifth year in the show, I was looking towards, you know well, if I can't do this for any longer, even with the two of us you know I'm married how are we going to? How is it going to work? Because, also, I was thinking about my husband's career as well and what it is that he wants to do. So I started to looking to... I mean, I liked organizing things, particularly when I was in the cast. You know we kind of used to have these cook-offs where everyone would bring food in and we'd sit together and eat and just kind of organising social events, and I thought, kind of trying to find a, a job in theatre, kind of incorporating that or using that skill set whilst not performing on stage. So I started to look at assistant roles for actors agencies, because obviously a lot of us have agents and use them but not necessarily know how it all works, but still being involved in the art sector within theatre more so than film and tv. So, um, I started to look for some internships while I was still in the show and I was able to find one, um, and I was able to do that on my day off and also a couple of days during the week before I had an evening show.
Khadifa:So you're a mother, interning and in a West End show is like your day job. That's a lot.
Patience:But at the time it didn't really seem a lot, I guess because I kind of wanted to obviously love being a mum, love doing the show, but also kind of trying to think you know, what would I like to do later on. I need to try and create some kind of pathway. So once I left the Lion King, that internship turned into a part-time job. So I continued doing that for a while. But it got to a point where I guess with and obviously this is just my opinion on working in an agency and being an agent it is a lot. It's hard to let people realise it is you are selling people effectively, you're selling their skill set, you're trying to get them into the room. And for me it didn't really feel as creative as I wanted it to. For a while it wasn't creating anything.
Khadifa:Yes.
Patience:Yeah, you know I really enjoyed, you know, calling an actor to kind of say you've put that job, and sharing that excitement. But there was just something missing for me. So I was told by a friend who hosts the Olivier Awards, that they normally look for a production team assistant or a production assistant for that period. And it was like you know, the um, I think it was advertised as kind of like six weeks leading up to the Olivier Awards. Obviously you're there for the big night, but you get to help out. You know all the teams are set up and everything else. So, um, luckily I was given the opportunity to do that, loved it. It was just, you know, it was kind of all the things I like to do, the organisation bits and all the rest of it, but then getting to see the result of the event at the end and the live performance aspect and all of that, and I thought to myself after completing that project I think I could do this every day. I think actually this is what I'd like to go into. So I think it was a few weeks after that a producer, a West End producer, was looking for a production assistant and I applied for the job and I got it and yeah, it was. I think I felt I found my place for now. Yeah, I found my niche, found my place for now and I worked there for I think must have been nearly three years before COVID hit right, which is obviously devastation to the whole industry, and it was after that. And I mean so sorry to go back a little bit yeah, whilst working at that company I'd um been promoted from production assistant to production coordinator and the next kind of level or step would be assistant or associate general manager and then general manager. I didn't really see myself moving in that direction, the general management because I think you're then set apart a little bit from the people and the company managers and the cast and all the rest of it, which I quite enjoyed. I quite enjoyed that kind of middle ground of working in that production role to have those interactions with those people. So it was just after COVID that this job, the manager job at Lion King, was advertised and I kind of thought to myself, hmm, maybe this would be the time to do it, because I kind of saw myself maybe going into company management at some point. Yeah, wasn't sure when, but I thought maybe this would be the time to. Yes, do it. And I know the show. It is a very, very big show but I think it would have been another production of this scale. I may not have been so forthcoming with applying for it, but I applied for it, got the role.
Patience:Post Covid. It was a baptism of fire because everything was opening and then closing again because obviously the Covid was spiking up and spiking down. People had returned home and then come back to london as well to do the show. So it was a huge transition period for everybody. But I think coming out the other side of that it was so, so rewarding and I'm still here for now. So I made it through the other side. But yeah, I just. I could have never dreamt to imagine being here in this role. Now like little me from watching Dance and being on stage and everything else, and in this building that has so much history and the show that has so much history it is. I can't believe that I get to wake up and come in and do this job every single day, Like it's such a privilege what I get to wake up and come in and do this job every single day like it's such a privilege.
Khadifa:What was your thoughts when you saw the advert for company manager at Lion King?
Patience:hmm, I wonder who's? Because the company manager. I had been here for a very long time and I know there'd been somebody in between, so I was a bit like oh gosh, okay, and I had been speaking about it with you know, like when you have reviews at work with my managers, where I was working previously, is then you know I could see myself being company manager at some point. Yeah, um, but yeah, when I saw it I just kind of thought maybe it's the time, maybe, you know, it's all about timing and I felt that I was ready.
Patience:Yeah, it felt right, it felt ready. As I said, I knew the show from being in it as a performer, but also I'd learned so much from working in a production office and understanding so many things from a general management perspective and why particular decisions are made which, at the time being a performer, you don't understand. All of that because you don't have the insight, which is absolutely fine. But I just kind of felt because I have the insight from both sides now, yes, this may be the right time.
Khadifa:Yes, it's a huge show, but it may be the right time, yes, so yeah, I think if anyone was going to steer the company through that, who better than to have someone that knows both sides of everything and would the closest thing to having a performer run? It would be you, because, especially out of a pandemic, when we're all losing our identities, rediscovering our identities, questioning why we're even in this business and all of these things that are going on, did that kind of feel like an extra responsibility or weight that maybe that's why you were the right person for the job?
Patience:God knows, as I mean.
Patience:I mean everything is in his hand. So I believe. So, yeah, you know, and also from where I had been working previously with us trying to get shows up and running. In between you know, we had some gaps during COVID where we wanted to try and do stuff open air or you can perform to X amount of people. So even having that experience too, and setting up COVID, testing from where I was previously having at least a bit of an idea of that, was obviously helpful, was obviously helpful.
Patience:But, yes, people, everyone's perspective changed from you know it. I think for a lot of people it kind of seemed well, if this was all to end again tomorrow, what would I be doing? Am I doing the right thing? Should I be still dancing, performing on stage or staying back home with family that I've left how many thousands of miles away? But I think that first um read through again kind of post-covid, everyone come back together, come back into the country after not seeing each other in person for you know, over a year it was so emotional.
Patience:Also, you know, during that time too, we lost people that had worked on the show, not necessarily, you know, at the time of the show had closed but during covid there had been ex-cast members, I think. Just all of that it was, yeah, I think timing is everything. Timing is everything because I'd actually in the past, before I think, between applying for production assistant jobs, I'd actually apply for a production assistant job for disney, oh yeah, but thinking back, you know, if I'd got on the role back then I wasn't ready. Obviously at the time I didn't get it, but I obviously wasn't ready. But you know, I had to take, go on the path and go on a journey that I had been on to get to where I am today.
Khadifa:So yeah, all right so let's go back to that first day. What in your mind, was the first thing that you needed to do when you started the job? What was your goal or your kind of right? Here's what I want to hear. Here's what I want to change or make or create in this job
Patience:I'm not sure. I think it was this kind of everyone. First of all, everyone had face masks on, yeah. So I think my first goal is probably to at least know everyone, learn everyone's name, because I think that's such an important thing as well with a company of this size and not just a cast, the crew as well, everyone that works so hard to get the show on every single evening. It's important for everyone to feel valued, and I think I came in with the attitude kind of thinking well, when I was in a cast, what did I want from a company manager? What kind of person did I want? Who did I feel that I could go to? I wanted to kind of create the space where we could have open, clear communication.
Patience:People felt that they could be heard, people felt that I could be fair and if there was something they were upset about or didn't agree with, there'd be an explanation for it, because you know, a Company Managers sits between the cast and crew and the company and general management, and you're representative for both ultimately. So I think, creating a safe space for people to feel I'm here for them. I'm here for everybody, not just the cast. I'm here for everyone that works on the show. And also, you know, it was a huge thing for me because of representation. This, this company, has never had a person of colour as a company manager and there's not many of us in the west end, there's not many of us doing this job at all. So that had a huge weight on me. That had a huge you know, it's a huge responsibility to carry as well and to be put in that position to make them feel that well, I guess it is proving that I'm the right person to do it.
Khadifa:So for the people listening that maybe want to get into theatre and maybe don't know exactly what the role is, just demystify the role of company manager a little bit and just give us a sort of snippet of what your day is like and what duties you're expected to fulfil.
Patience:Okay, I mean I get asked this question a lot and it is ultimately it is doing everything for the company, anything and everything you can imagine it would take to run a show. What people would need to run a show. That is your responsibility. I mean first and foremost, as I said it is. You are the liaison between a general management team and the cast and company. You're responsible for doing things like payroll, checking people's hours, making sure people are not working too much or too little yeah, I'm not sure. Um, making sure that ultimately, everyone is taken care of and anyone that works here feels that they are taken care of at all times you're there to listen. I'd say it is kind of a role of being an aunt, a counsellor. You need to create a safe space for people to come into and feel that they are valued and they are welcome.
Patience:Day-to-day is a show running. So when I come into work, normally I'm in the various emails for various reasons, whether it's people just checking in about press events. We do the scheduling for the cast. The stage management tends to send out schedules for the technical teams, who also organize holidays for the cast. Um, the HODs tend to take care of doing that for their various departments and we have a lot of press events as well, so making sure that that is organized and that is um given to the company in a timely manner. We liaise with the creative team as well, so for any rehearsals that need to happen for the cast, make sure that information is passed on. We regularly meet with the general management team as well for any issues or anything that may be coming up in the future, because we have to plan ahead quite a lot on the production of this size. There's a lot of things that are going on always Monitoring sickness and injury and illness, supporting people that are sick, injured or ill as well. Making sure that, because they're not performing or in the building every single day, they're still being taken care of. Checking in in regards to physio reports as well to make sure that people are then, if they are being given treatment or given a plan to do, making sure that that is followed through as well.
Patience:Mention holidays I mentioned payroll. I mentioned schedules, social events as well. Sometimes we have to organize those. So for any you know parties that we have in the year to celebrate a new cast coming in or for cast members leaving, organizing um events that we have for um children that come into the show that have various illnesses, meet and greets with the cast. We tend to do quite a lot of those and the cast are really good at volunteering for that as well, because it is a special show, particularly for children that are quite ill or don't get out or get to see theatre very, very often. It's such a wonderful thing that we're able to do and we're able to accommodate sorting out costume fittings for new cast members that are coming in and making sure that they're all ready and all set up um for the other heads of department being there for them if they need support to deal with any issues within their teams, um or any conflicts, etc.
Patience:I mean, every single day is different, yes, apart from the obvious show running. So then, when it comes to well, for instance, today we've got one show, so we make sure that anyone that is calling off sick or injured does so before three o'clock. Three o'clock is the time that we send the covering out to a group that we've got to find out who needs to be covered for that show, particularly principals. Once we have that information from the creative team. The people that are then on the principal roles are then told. That then gets sent out to the wider HODs for their costumes and puppets etc. We then make sure that everyone is in on time for their physical and vocal warm-up.
Patience:Around the half-hour call I go and suggest some rooms to check on and everybody to say hello, because you know at warm-up time you see everybody on stage warming up together. But it's just making sure just a quick check-in is a quick hello because, as you can imagine, a cast of this size, you don't really get a lot of one-on-one time with people. So just, you know, going round to the rooms is actually quite a nice thing to check in on people and we give clearance for when the show's about to start, to make sure that everyone's set backstage front of house are ready to go, make sure that the stage manager has that information and we do the same at the top of that too. And then, once the show is down, we tend to be the last to leave the building once the cast is out gosh
Khadifa:Yes, you are the heart and soul of this company, making sure that everything runs smoothly yeah, absolutely.
Patience:And, you know, in collaboration with others, and I think that's the whole thing. I mean, that is what is so beautiful, I think that's what we've managed to establish over time with work is that it takes everyone it's not one person who can do it all by themselves. And having that respect for you know, each department's role is just important as another department's role. There isn't, well, mine's more important than yours, or you know, we're all here to achieve the same goal, which is to get the show on every single night, make sure that it looks beautiful, sounds beautiful yeah, yeah.
Khadifa:So what kind of you describe? I mean, it's an amazing job that you do and one I think you do particularly well. Having noticed the kind of culture and the beauty of the building and coming back after some time away has been really lovely for me. What kind of person do you think? If someone is looking to go into company management, what would you advise them to kind of focus on to get them to this position?
Patience:I would say you have to. You cannot have an ego. I think that is the biggest thing. You cannot work on a show or come into a place or an environment with I am the I am, you know, because nobody knows everything, and you have to be able to put your hands up and say I made a mistake or I must have not understood, or I got that wrong, because I think that just shows that you're a human being and that's all that people want to see. It's not about yes, there are, there is a hierarchy, but I think people will be more receptive to you if you just show that you are a human being that has flaws, that makes mistakes but then can be held accountable for them.
Khadifa:Yeah, and I think theatre maybe needs more of that kind of humanity at times. So last question, kind of let's go back to the beginning and thinking about and you made a brief allusion to it that maybe little old you would not have thought that, but considering every boundary you had to break down just to get here, from being at places like Tring and stuff like that, do you think this is the kind of perfect end? Or what would you say to little Patience when she was starting out on that journey?
Patience:Oh gosh, what would I say to little Patience? I mean, keep pushing, never give up. I don't think I did give up, obviously, it's very. What do I want to say? I guess you know, obviously, as a dancer and everything you know auditioning and all the rest of it you're more resilient than you believe you are because I guess, if you think back to it as well how many auditions, how many knockbacks, how many setbacks, we managed to find a way to pick ourselves up and still go to the next audition and still give it another go and I think, yeah, you are stronger than you think you are because you've been through so much and I'm sure there'll be more to come. But just keep going, keep your head up and you're making everyone so proud. I think you are your ancestors dreams.
Khadifa:Theatre is a place of dreams and everyone who works in theater came in with some kind of longing or inspiration and I hope our first two interviews have showed that. I hope you enjoyed part one of our Lion King special coming up in part two, we will have two more interviews for you and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Thank you so much for listening.
