Who Makes Theatre?
Who Makes Theatre is a podcast that focuses on the people who work behind the scenes in Theatre. Every fortnight Khadifa Wong will be joined in conversation by members of the Theatre community.
Who Makes Theatre?
Every show needs Dressers, Crew, and their invisible magic to succeed.
Step into the shadows of London's dazzling West End with Who Makes Theatre, where the spotlight turns to reveal the extraordinary people who work tirelessly behind the scenes. Meet Shennika and Jo, a Dresser and Crew member respectively from Disney's The Lion King, whose stories illuminate the vibrant but often invisible world that keeps theatrical magic alive night after night.
Shennika's journey from digital artist to dresser reveals the often unconventional path many theatrical careers take. Her candid reflections show how she found her place in the whirlwind of quick changes, costume repairs, and emotional support that defines her role.
Jo offers a fascinating glimpse into stage crew life, describing how their childhood fascination with Cirque du Soleil evolved into a career spent "working in the shadows." Their openness about neurodivergence in the industry challenges the "show must go on" mentality while advocating for better understanding and support systems. From perfectly timed tree branch drops to the thrill of watching audience reactions through video monitors, their story demonstrates how the smallest technical details create unforgettable theatrical moments.
Both guests discuss the unique challenges of theatre careers – the antisocial hours that require holidays for "normal weekend functions," the pressure of representation for people of colour backstage, and the intense emotional bonds formed with colleagues. Despite these hurdles, their passion shines through in every anecdote and reflection.
Whether you're considering a backstage career, curious about how West End productions actually function, or simply appreciate the craftsmanship behind artistic experiences, Theatre Voices offers an intimate, honest exploration of theatrical life beyond the applause.
Subscribe now and discover a whole new appreciation for the artists who create magic from the wings.
Welcome to who makes theatre, a podcast that answers that question by celebrating and showcasing the people that work behind the scenes on some of our biggest musicals and plays. Welcome back. Today, I'm continuing my Lion King theme with two more guests Shennika, who is a dresser, and Jo, who works on crew. Once again, I would really like to thank Disney Theatrical and the company management and the Lyceum Theatre for their support in helping make this podcast. I'd also like to thank all of my contributors from the West End for agreeing to take part and sharing their stories. Joining me now is Shennika, a dresser on Lion King. Shennika, hi Hi, welcome to the show.
Shennika:Thank you for having me.
Khadifa:Of course, it's such a pleasure to be able to talk to you like this, so let's start off simple. How did you get into theatre?
Shennika:Oh, wow. So okay, first experience with theatre. I guess, like most people, it starts when you're really, really little and you go to your first pantomime and you're blown away by like the music and the costumes and the Peter Pan flying across the stage and everything, um, and also it was the best excuse to get out of class, best excuse to get out of lessons. So, like, theatre has always been something that's really like, really like a fun escape in a way. But so for me, I got more into theatre because I wanted to do more. I was sort of torn between going into the arts and just going into theatre. So I was like I'm able to draw, I'm a digital artist as well. So I was kind of, oh, maybe getting into design could be fun. So I kind of went down that route of theatre design and then going through that course and getting into the actual industry. I'm like, actually they're designers, it's pretty hard, it's hard and and they always say like I've met a few designers on, you know over the years and they've always told me it's quite a lonely job as well. Yeah, because it's very much just you on your own, you're away doing everything, doing white card model boxes and everything.
Shennika:So for me, I've always been a people person. I've always wanted to be around colour and around the stage and just and having a job for me. Like I started in drafting for stage, so drawing on AutoCAD and everything, and you're so away from everything and even though you're with production people, you don't actually see any of the show. You, you're so away from everything and even though you're with production people, you don't actually see any of the show. You don't see any of what it actually is going to look like. You just sort of see black and white boxes on a ground plan. So, going from that into what I'm doing now dressing, you're so much a part of everything and you actually can feel the show and feel the excitement and you kind of go through the highs and lows with everyone else and I think that for me is like the best way to get into theatre is just get really hands-on, see it all, get to know the show, get to know people.
Khadifa:So once you decided to leave designing behind, did you go straight into dressing, or did you kind of feel your way for a bit?
Shennika:Oh god, I had to feel my way for a bit because I mean, for me, like my CV got to a point where it was like three pages long because I did so much different work experiences, things like design assistant. I did um, set and costume design for a college production when I was at uni. Still, um, I went into scenic painting. I did a bit of prop making, prop sourcing, and I just sort of tried everything. To an extent I was kind of like during the pandemic, I was like, okay, what else is there to do? And I realized wardrobe is something that I haven't actually really done other than design aspects, but I wanted to be a part of the actual. This is actual wardrobe, this is actual costume.
Shennika:So for me it wasn't like a straightforward get in. I had to sort of try and see if I could apply for jobs. But then then it got to a point where, like, because I didn't have experience, it was very hard to getting into. So that's where the Facebook group places come about all the different pages, and I managed to find a guy on there who was looking for casual dresses and I was like I don't know what that is, but I want to try it, yeah, and from there is history really. I kind of got into that and then you sort of like build your experience in different shows and you kind of just then it's easier to get into other places and other shows. So, yeah, that was kind of the route into that.
Khadifa:So how did you feel when you first became a casual dresser? You know what was your first show like as a casual dresser.
Shennika:Oh God, it was insane and incredible at the same time. Like I don't think I've ever felt so like jittery with nerves, because you come in, you're meeting everyone for the first time, you're meeting a whole brand new show that are just touring at that particular venue, uh, you're meeting the Wardrobe Master who gives you a few pages of a dressing plot and you're kind of given the hour to learn it, to learn the costumes, to learn the people, to learn everything. And I think for my first, uh, casual dressing role, it was, um, for Rocky Horror Picture Show, and I was given principal female track and I've never dressed before. I didn't even know what a five minute call was, I didn't know what a half call was, so I had to learn everything in that afternoon. And he was kind of like, can I trust you to do this? And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure. Um, so it was quite fun in terms of just like, okay, I can prove myself, I can do this.
Shennika:Um, I did make a few mistakes, but with every show you do make a few odd mistakes because you can get things mixed up. Um, you might end up coming. She asked me to come at I think it was the lead principal at the time. She asked me to come at beginners and I came at the five and she was like, no, like beginners. And I was like, is this not beginners? I have no idea what time to come, so I had to be googling a lot of like what does that mean? What does that mean? But honestly, yeah, the first show was incredible. It was. It was a great learning curve. You do make a few friends on the way and you learn a lot.
Khadifa:You were bitten by it from then, like from that, I guess, even though things didn't go 100% perfect, you felt like this was what you wanted to do. You'd found your place.
Shennika:rom, it was such a challenge and I love being able to be hands-on and just be like, ok, fine, I didn't do great on this show, but there's tomorrow, there's tomorrow. So there was always another day to try again. And with touring shows especially, you might be on it for two weeks and then you get to say goodbye to the show. When you get to experience, um, a get out, which is super fun as the show's going, is going on, you're just like packing away costume, just striking everything and it's it's over within like an hour or two hours and you're like, oh, it was like the show was never here.
Shennika:So, yeah, it's incredible.
Khadifa:So then, what came after casual dressing? What came next for you?
Shennika:So, yeah, so with casual dressing, um, what people don't realize is it's very much like similar to depping. You're basically you're not employed the whole year. It's not a fixed schedule, it's not a fixed salary. You're very much just whenever there's a show there, you're there for that solid time and then you might go a few months or a few weeks without work and then you're back in it again whenever the show is there.
Shennika:So a lot of people that I was working with on this particular theatre venue um, they were it was kind of doing casual dressing as their part-time like. Their sort of like a passion project, of like they had their main job and this was something they did on the side. So for me, coming out of the pandemic and that was the first thing I got into it was very much like okay, I need to find a way to make this full-time, make it a bit more steady. See what that's like, what is like just working on one show for a contract of a year or more. So I did, um get into, I did many interviews, but I got into my full-time show in the West End and, yeah, it was. It was amazing to be able to do a few casual dressing roles. Um, having that on the CV when you really just go on about your experience and what you've learned, and it honestly is the best way to get into a full-time dressing job, because they're like, oh, you've kind of tried everything, you've done different shows, you've experienced different paces, different types of tracks.
Shennika:I did ensemble casual dressing, I did Principal casual dressing. So to go into a full-time, it's like, yeah, you basically know everything. But only difference is is that you'll be working with the same people day in, day out, as opposed to just being there for two weeks or a week or even a show. I did one sick cover on a show. I think what was the show? It must have been Bedknobs and Broomsticks. It was interesting. Because you're only there for a day, you don't really seem to care about the small details. You're very much, much just like I'm just here for a show. Let me just sort of get through it.
Shennika:Get through it, make sure everyone gets on with the right costumes and the right props and that's it, yeah.
Khadifa:Now we're here, because now we're working together, I guess you're in a place now where it's possible to kind of really dig your feet in and make it a career, make a life for yourself in theatre as well. How does that feel?
Shennika:God making a life, God it honestly, it becomes your whole life in a way. What people don't realize is with dressing, and if you're with most West End theatre jobs like this is very much your full time, like you're working six days out of the week. You get one day off. I mean it varies from different jobs because some people do get float days. Assistants might get you know like the odd shift off or the one random like evening show off, but for dressing especially, I feel like it's a job where you're working the same as the cast, like you're just here, day in, day out, show by show. It's you're very much. You're like the closest point of call, really like you're with them all the time. So it's quite, it's a very rewarding role and big responsibility to have, because they do rely on you a lot as their emotional support. You know like you're there with their costume, like without us you know they struggle to get on stage and it's becomes a thing, and without them we also didn't you know, it's very much a nice partnership of I got you, you got me.
Khadifa:Is that something you knew, when you knew before you went into dressing just the depths of what the job involved?
Shennika:Oh, I had no idea I had to learn on the way, because, I mean, I've been very fortunate on my career so far that I've been working with a lot of male ensemble.
Shennika:Sometimes they might come in and be like, oh, I don't want to do the show today, I'm feeling really sad, and you have to kind of be like you know what, tell me, like what's up, because you're literally you're with them all the time.
Shennika:Like there was this one guy that I worked with on my last show and we had eight costume changes together for every show. So we were together 24/ 7 and sometimes we'd bicker like brother and sister. Other times we'll get on like a house on fire, like we work just day in, day out with each other every day. And, yeah, it's such a lovely relationship to have because, even though we've we're now working on different shows and he's had an amazing career so far and he's so young as well, he's he's gone on to do so many amazing things. Now he's on a tour and we still keep in contact to this day and it's so wonderful to have like friends that you make in this type of job and industry, like it's honestly, like it's so different from other jobs where you just come in, you're nine to five, you're ten to six, because you're just with them 24/7.
Shennika:So you do have those nice work friendships, which I love.
Khadifa:I think that's been one of my most favourite aspects of working in theatre is some of the relationships and friendships that I've had during my time in theatre. What do you think is next for you? What next steps would you like to take in your career?
Shennika:That question is a tough one to answer, but I think for me, being on a journey like this, where you're very much, you have to be very in tune with your mental health. You have to be very in touch with how you're feeling and, if you can, you know cope, because it's a very full on job and it sort of exposes all sides of you, because there's been times where, like you, can feel quite overwhelmed. And bear in mind, dressing is not only for extroverted people. It's not for those who just want to chat 24/ 7 and just want to be around people 24/ 7. I work with a lot of people who are very introverted, who do find their little quiet corners to read a book, um, and to see how they work every day and how they cope with being around. You know, tons of people in a space and being in a part of a big cast such as this one, um, I think it's quite nice to see how they get on with it and how they cope, and I think for me, it's factored into what I want to do long term and I love where I'm at at the moment I'll be hoping to be as successful as most other dressers I work with and maybe even work on other shows. Like I've always said, I've wanted to try like working on a tour, um, but I know with dressers we don't really tour. So you can always step up and become like an assistant or again like a Wardrobe Mistress or Master, like I've worked with in the past, and that might be a good step forward so you get to experience what it's like to like work with a touring show and sort of go on the road with them and it's as much as a very different ball game than just being, you know, in London, in the West End and yeah. So I think that could be a possibility.
Shennika:I've always got asked questions about whether I would go back to what I did in the beginning, which was drafting, and I've thought about it a few times.
Shennika:But because, as much as I love the job and I was very good technically, it's very much like living in black and white and now that I've seen colour and I've seen the lights, I've seen the stage, I don't think I could go back to working in black and white on computers all day. It would be such a shock, yeah, to go back into a space where everyone's tapping away at computers and there's not much conversation and sometimes you're even scared to go downstairs to get a tea because you're like, oh, I don't want to disturb people, so no, I don't think I could go back to that. But yeah, definitely as long as I keep laughing and I'm happy and I love where I'm working. Because, again, you've got to bear in mind, if you don't get on with the people that you're working with, it becomes very, very difficult for the day-to-day. So I will hope to just find people, like-minded people like myself, and keep in that positive bubble and, yeah, it makes it all worth it.
Khadifa:And I think you do keep this department very, very kind of upbeat, and you mentioned like you take into consideration mental health and the mental health of your performers as well. What advice would you give people?
Shennika:Oh, to have to, kind of well, the ones who are already in the industry or the ones who want to come in
Khadifa:yeah both
Shennika:how to look after your mental health, oh my God.
Shennika:To be fair, with the company that we currently work for, we're very lucky because we do have sort of in-house well-being managers and well-being people that you can talk to, and I always say, like, just find even just quiet moments just to reflect. I think a lot of people say journaling helps. Just talking to people really helps as well, not just the cast. If the cast works for you, great, because I'm really close to the people I work with. So, cast-wise, I do talk with them. We're like family, which is really lovely. But yeah, even just finding other things to look forward to whether it's holiday, whether it's things you do on your day off yeah, you have to constantly keep looking forward to something. Because when you do the same thing every day, day in, day out, um, if you're not a swing already, like you're someone who works on one full-time track, you're yeah.
Shennika:After a while you kind of get into like autopilot mode.
Khadifa:Did you think it was going to be as much people management as it is when you first got into it?
Shennika:No, oh my god. So I think when I first got in um, because the first casual dressing job I did I was working like three principals. So I've recognized, with principal tracks you're kind of looking after maybe one or two or three people max. So yeah, when you first get into like being an ensemble dresser obviously looking after a lot of people it's it can be a real shock because sometimes you're looking after like maybe up to 11 people, just a group of people, and it's just you're solely responsible for everything costume wise. You've got to keep track of the repairs. You'll keep track of whether it's shoe repairs or if they lose something. Where do you last leave your shoes? Don't leave this on the floor, make sure you hang this up, or at least give it to me to hang up. So things like costume and I know on the last show that I worked on, it was a real shock because, bear in mind, I came in, I was 22, 23 years old and I was just. It was a shock of just when other dressers are asking you hey, like I haven't been able to locate this person's knee pads, where is it? And you might, you might not, have a lot to do with that person during the show, but because you're their dresser under, like the group of your ensemble, this dresser, the banner you're very much like, you're responsible for finding, even if it's the other dresser who uses it every day, you're responsible for making sure it goes back to where it would start at the beginners. Um. So having to make sure all beginners costumes are in their dressing rooms ready to go, or whether it's in you know sub stage ready to go, like it is a massive shock and sometimes you do feel overwhelmed because, on top of learning a track, you're also like having to keep track of all repairs and everything and make sure everything is neat and ironed and ready to go. It's a very big learning curve and it does prepare you to be more organized and you do feel very much like okay, so I've got to really get this together and so I kind of came up with small ways of organising myself as well as organising the people I was looking after.
Shennika:So one of the things I did for my last show, which I don't do now, thank God. I kind of made a little calendar for myself and it was nothing. It was all things I would write down, because we had a very extensive laundry week of just on Mondays, for instance. It'd be only like you might do hand wash of this particular costume, or every day you might be washing sort of black t-shirts and socks and underwear and whatnot, and like there's certain days of the week where you can't wash things every day, so you have to sort of do things like maybe every other day or once a week things might have a spray.
Shennika:So for me, keeping track of what's been done, I had to do like a little diagram calendar for myself so I can mark off each day like okay, today's the day I'm going to focus on this, tomorrow I'm going to put this to watch, and then sometimes you do miss things, but, like you will, it's better to keep organized, whether it's like a little little notebook for yourself, whether it's a calendar. Um, and bear in mind at the time my uh, my head of wardrobe was impressed she was like oh my God, this is really organised, but it seemed just the way for me to sort of focus my mind a bit.
Khadifa:There's a lot of moving parts, and sometimes you're not in control of every moving part, are you? So you can only control what's in your remit, otherwise you're...
Shennika:You know, I love the fact that you have a really busy dressing track and it just becomes even harder to try and organise things you're not thinking about, because you're thinking so much about the show and you want it to run as smoothly as possible, on top of having everything else, um, to worry about. But god, yeah, it's, it's a job, for sure, yeah, but a job you enjoy.
Khadifa:What do you think, um, for people that want to do this job? What would you say is the thing that they should sort of focus on, and what qualities do you think they should make sure they have before they come into this world?
Shennika:Okay, easy answer would be I'd say, be a very organised person, but also be very personable, because whether you like it or not, you have to make conversations in the building or the show that you're working on. But also just find a way, healthy ways to sort of release stress. And also don't take everything so personally as well, because how I started because I'm someone who's I'm quite hard on myself about a lot of things I was always very even if the smallest mistakes I'll beat myself about, I'll be like oh my God, how did I make this mistake? How did I get this costume mixed up? How did this happen? And you're very much. You take ait home with you and you're upset and you're like, a lot of people remind you on the shows you work on, it's like, at the end of the day, not saving lives, it's we're fun. It's also meant to be something that you can do day in, day out without completely destroying your mental health over. So I always say for people like, if you can find just healthy ways to sort of ... I'm not saying don't care, but just be like you know what, okay, fine, I made a mistake, we'll try again, we won't do it again tomorrow, but just find ways to just be like you know what it's not the end of the world if it goes wrong like, just try your best and also be a massive problem solver as well, because there's been times where you know, on a day when we have a thing called a split track, where you've got one actor maybe doing three different tracks because there's not enough people in or people have been swung off, or you know, under different circumstances, like you're having to then adapt your dressing track to make sure you can cover certain things so the show can still go on, or you're cutting certain costumes, and so just being able to problem solve and be like right, we can try this, we can try that, or things break sometimes during the show. So having safety pins and just anything you can think of that will help get them on stage. Be able to be creative, yeah, yeah. So there's such a an amazing set of skills.
Shennika:believe that dresses dressers we have to really really have. Um, and bear in mind you don't have to come in with it, you can learn it. It's something that a lot of people like it might take five years to learn, it might take a month to learn, you know.
Shennika:So I would say, just be open to like adapting.
Khadifa:I feel like sometimes not everyone understands what we do and it that it's undervalued a lot in the theatre industry. And what do you think we need to do to kind of change people's perceptions of what dressing is and what a vital job it is?
Shennika:Yeah, to be fair, like there's, um, we've had a few like conversations, even the past few weeks, of just people who aren't dressers in the building itself or in the show, like they then have their own perceptions on what we do and sometimes, yeah, they can be like no, we actually don't cover that bit, but we do this thing, and so I think for a lot of people, maybe looking into getting into this or even wanting to understand it better is sometimes you just need to kind of come in and be a shadow, even just to see it for yourself, and then you can sort of take away what that is, because you can always write a list of everything you're responsible for.
Shennika:But sometimes it kind of overlaps with other things, because there's been times, even in the show that we work on, that we're working with puppets as well as costume and sometimes even things like makeup you might even dabble into, and that's not something a conventional dresser would even do, but you're having to do so much extra bits, um, which can be good and bad, but yeah, it's just, it's very much. You need to just sort of take it for what it is and sort of try some things and if you feel like it's not really for you. It's like you know you kind of fit into your own. Everyone has their own version of what a dresser actually is and what we do, so it's quite tricky, yeah.
Khadifa:And we almost personalise it, don't we ourselves, our role, and tailor it to our strengths or our weaknesses, I guess, or avoid it with our weaknesses and stuff? What would you say has been your, I guess, biggest challenge in the career you've had so far?
Shennika:Biggest challenge? Oh, that's a hard one to answer, but I think OK, I'll give you a few examples, but one of the main ones that I really struggled with is just kind of knowing when to leave sometimes, which can be quite a tricky place to be. If you feel like you need to leave for mental health reasons, if you feel like you need to leave because you want to try something else, because I find with a lot of people, they do stay in jobs for many, many years just from the fear of not knowing what else to do or whether they might like the next place that they're going into. So for me, it got to a point where, like, okay, I've been in a year contract with one show and as much as you build a rapport with the performers that you work with and they might be like, oh, please don't leave, you know. It got to a situation where they're like, oh, don't leave after until I've left, and you're like, oh, you know. So you do stay for them, but a lot of times you have to be like you know what, you have to take a risk and you don't really know, you might end up going to another show that you might absolutely like you don't fit in, you might hate working for in um, but yeah, and you have to keep trying to push yourself out of comfort zones and I feel like that.
Shennika:I struggled with that in the beginning, from just knowing how to let go of and sort of end a chapter to open a new one. And it doesn't have to always be a negative thing. Sometimes it could be positive to be like you know what, like I spent a good amount of time on this one show, like and I love how I ended on a high to go somewhere else and then, yeah, you get to see until this stops being fun.
Shennika:Then you go somewhere else and yeah, I think that's how it's the healthiest way to sort of navigate
Khadifa:Do you think that's because a lot of the time we're taught that it's so hard to get jobs in this industry? and so you always feel like you're slightly in peril, that like, oh, if you leave this job, you're never going to get another one
Shennika:Yeah, this, oh God. It's always that fear.
Shennika:But I've known some people who've just just quit a job without even having anything lined up, and you're kind of like how, do you do that because, bear in mind also, certain contracts start and end at weird points in the year, so you might end one job in the spring and you might not get anything until you know um, september. So yeah, it's definitely difficult, um, and it's not impossible necessarily. But yeah, I feel like there's always that misconception of how to get into certain jobs, because I remember when I first started I really believed you had to have so much experience before you even even applied for a West End theatre show. But now, being in it, it's like there's so much different avenues you can take to get into this job. But you don't really need to necessarily have spent five years doing mini shows to get here.
Shennika:A lot of people have come from so much different backgrounds, like I even knew one person who dressed um who came from a graphic design background, which is very unrelated to theatre. So it's very much like it's just, I guess it's a lot it's luck, a lot of it is luck, and also who you know. And just, yeah, as long as you're willing to show that you can do it and you can try and you're determined, I think yeah, anyone can sort of get into this.
Khadifa:So what do you think the skills? Like you mentioned, someone's a graphic designer and I think it's a lot about transferable skills and I think dressers have a lot of transferable skills. What sort of transferable skills do you think that you had that were enabled you to to sort of progress as quickly as you did?
Shennika:oh god, yeah, um, yeah again, adaptability and also, I guess, coming from a big family.
Shennika:It is just like you're used to dealing with a lot of people and just being able to sort of like lead in your own right and for me, being the eldest of like four people and you know four siblings, is like it's very much like how you're able to sort of navigate and look after people as well as, um, I guess, also because I've come from a lot of I came from like an art I started by, doing painting and everything in college and stuff, and so, coming up from like that sort of creative background, you're able to sort of adapt and move over your own creative skills into this field, where things aren't always so black and white. There's so much different ways you can mend a costume or there's so much different ways you can even do a dressing track, like there's so much, it's amazing, it's so much different ways and also there's no right or wrong way to do things, which I feel like that's a massive transferable skill of just being able to just try everything and yeah, I keep going.
Khadifa:Were you encouraged as a kid to pursue art and stuff? Did it start there?
Shennika:Yeah, I was very lucky, like my parents were always very supportive and they were always like, yeah, whatever you want to do, just do it. And I think long as you show passion for something like, they will always kind of support you on that. Um, and I've always been into art since I was really really little, like I've always as long as I've known, I've always been drawing, I've always been painting and coloring and creating. So it just happened that I've ended up in theatre. But I had a very different avenue for, like, if you asked me like 20 years ago what I wanted to do, I would never have seen myself here. I've always been like, oh, I want to work in film, or I always want to work in animation, or I want to do this, I want to do that. So it's, yeah, it's. I feel like with arts it's such a wide, such a wide berth, and also theatre as well there's so much different careers. Like I mentioned, I've done so much different avenues, even just from work experience, and there's still I haven't covered every job there is in theatre.
Shennika:So, yeah, it just happened I've landed on a really great one that I want to stay in for as long as possible.
Khadifa:I think, just to round it off, then, because this is about people who've made their lives in theatre and for people we're hoping, we want them to kind of look at it and see that it is possible to make a life for yourself in theatre. How would you sum up your life in theatre? How would you describe it to someone?
Shennika:How I describe it. Um, I'll say that it's. It's been challenging. There's been times it's been a struggle, but it's been so rewarding as well, being able to be as you know already, there's not many People of Colour in the industry, especially for backstage and of how I've navigated through that it's.
Shennika:s sometimes you could feel like you're very much under a pressure to represent a lot, um, and then that also feeds into like pressures to sort of stay in a job longer than you'd like, because you're kind of like if I leave, then they would never have known there were people like me in this type of job, you know. So it's always nice to be able to represent but at the same time also do what's right for you. So I've always been someone who's like you know what. My happiness always comes first and also, as long as I'm able to leave my mark and be as personable as I can and just also affect and imprint a lot of other people's lives as well, like, I've made so many friends along the way that I don't think I could ever like I wouldn't have had the same path if I was on a different job completely. So, yeah, I would say like my career so far has been. It's been, it's been exciting.
Khadifa:Yeah, it's been amazing why do you think there's so few of us?
Shennika:Honestly I couldn't tell you is, um, a lot of people would say it's because of lack of exposure, or I guess other people might no want to do it. Maybe it's more theater versus film, maybe the more, maybe they're more on film. I have things. So far it's I've only even maybe met a handful of people and it's it's actually quite, it's quite interesting actually. Yeah, like I don't know where they go, what they're doing, but we do need more of us.
Shennika:onestly I've been very I was even thinking earlier today I've been very lucky that the shows that I've worked on, whether it's for me, they've been like quite sort of Black cast heavy, which has been very, very nice. So if I don't have people backstage who look like me or who can relate to me, I've always had cast that I can sort of lean on and like fall into that sort of bubble, which it can be good and bad as well, because obviously, because I'm not a cast member. So it's there's certain things that they will go through that I can't relate to and certain things that I'm going through that they can't relate to because they are the majority on certain shows where they have each other jobs and careers. It's it can be a divide, but it's also we can also be very close to.
Khadifa:I was the same. I never really had anyone backstage with me, but I did used to have cast and it was a very strange dynamic and people would kind of sometimes use that as a weapon against you, that because you were in with the cast. But you don't understand it. It's like they're the only other people.
Shennika:That's the only, exactly that.
Khadifa:The only ones I can relate to. I tend to connect with someone, otherwise I'm going to be totally alone. Yeah, yeah.
Shennika:I completely understand where you're coming from. Yeah, it is tricky and it's very hard to explain to those who don't understand that they're in a position where they're always around people like themselves and even though, yes, you have a lot in common with other people who aren't of your same like, I think, background but it's always nice to have you know someone next to others so you feel you're just not all on you to. Every year, when there's something to represent, like you're always being picked on to be like, oh, you should talk about this, so you should always sort of stand for them, talk about your experiences on this, and it's like you know yeah, yeah, . it's tricky, yeah
Khadifa:Do consciously chose shows that leaned heavily to more, having more people of colour People it. Colour Or was it just a happy sort of circumstance?
Shennika:I think it's been a happy circumstance, you know, because from when I was a casual dresser for that sort of short term, those shows were very like. They weren't that diverse. It was well, they had a lot of young people as well as older, more experienced performers, but it was all very one type of person, so one ethnicity. Another time, because I was still learning sort of the tricks of the trade and everything, I didn't really mind it too much because I was only there for a short time. So even if you didn't click with anyone in the show or backstage, you kind of like you know I'm only here for like a few weeks, you know. So it was sort of easier to navigate when it was just you, and I guess they're sort of used to like you kind of get used to blending in to your environment as well, so you don't stand out so much, you just sort of like get on with it and move on. But I was very, very fortunate that the two full-time shows that I've been in have been very, very mixed and very diverse and again, you can still blend in, but in a positive way, as opposed to just trying to like lessen your light in a way. Yeah, yeah, right now you're able to finally shine.
Shennika:Yeah, you can just, yeah, you can embrace things. You can embrace even like things like your natural hair texture, which has never been a problem in the past. But like at the same time. It's like people do notice if you change your hair a lot, if they don't understand, like that's what we do. You know we do change your hair on the weekly thing or a monthly thing, so it's nice to be able to just breathe and just sort of be yourself and just be like. You know what? Like it's fine, cause other people can relate in the building and you have people you can talk with and be like. Oh, I'm going to try this thing with my hair, or I'm going to try and like. Or in the winter, when you get a little paler or somewhere you get a bit tan, yeah, you're not sort of fascination.
Khadifa:Yeah, you're a topic of conversation. You're like it's just an observation.
Shennika:ou're, you can just try different things, which is really nice.
Khadifa:Well, I really appreciated your time, Shennika. It was so nice to talk to you and really really fun. So thank you very much for all of your insights. Thank you. My next guest is one of my favorite people in the building, Jo. Thank you so much for coming onto the show. Um, let's kick off really easy and start with how you got into theatre.
Jo:I think it was actually when I was about I can't remember I was age 9 or 10 but my dad's company used to sponsor Cirque du Soleil and so we had dress rehearsal tickets for the first show they ever did at the Royal Albert Hall. Oh my God, and I think that definitely sowed a seed. There was also one of the shows was on Channel 4 one Christmas when I was very small and my dad had been to see it in 1991 when he was over in America, and we recorded it onto VHS and I wore that VHS out. I knew it inside out.
Khadifa:Do you know what was it that kind of captured you? Was it the performance or the design, or was it just the whole spectrum?
Jo:I think it was a whole collaborative thing. I mean, one of the most fascinating things I remember was they were doing it wasn't Russian bars, it was vertical poles coming out of the stage that were cabled in and they took it apart as part of the performance and it was just seamless. It was fascinating. Also, possibly the thing that fascinated me the most was it scared the shit out of my sister. She has been afraid of clowns ever since. One one got in it in her face coming down the aisle and that was it.
Jo:Yeah, so you could already see from then that, like theatre's ability to kind of affect people, I think so yeah, actually saying that when I first started showing an interest in Ballet as a child still can't believe I did that
Khadifa:I can see the face that you're making, which is priceless about your interest in ballet, but I love it.
Jo:My mum took me to see one of the touring ballets that came to the Hexagon. I must have literally been about six, I think, and I was just absolutely fascinated by a piece called the Witch Boy, which was about, I think he was created by a witch, but I think it was actually his execution scene that really stuck with me. I'm like, oh, this is kind of cool and yeah.
Khadifa:So when did that kind of fascination and that kind of I guess admiration and awe turn into... When was the point that you kind of thought, okay, this is what I could do for a living.
Jo:I think that was possibly down to a wonderful woman called Carrie Hinton who was my drama teacher in secondary school. Um, she, she appeared, I think, when I was in year eight or nine, um, and she decided to start up drama club and so I somehow leapt into that. I think my English teacher had complimented me on one of my performance pieces in English and had encouraged me in that direction. Um, and so I joined the school play and all that sort of thing, um, and then she took me through GCSE as well, and I guess the rest is history and it's all down to Carrie Hinton,
Khadifa:That's amazing. So because you got encouragement at sort of a young age that kind of made you believe it was possible.
Jo:Yeah, yeah, I mean we had a playwright called William Olsen Campbell who came in for, I think, our year 10 project. We were doing an outreach project where we were supposed to be taking a play into primary schools and you know, classic GCSE drama about drugs and growing up and all this sort of stuff um, but he was very nurturing as a, as a as a mentor as well. So my first vague attempts creating plays of my own. He actually went over some of them with me to give me some pointers which I still. It was an experience I still hold very dear to myself. I have no idea what happened to him. His website's gone so I don't know what's happened to him.
Jo:I might have to track him down at some point so I think we're very similar in that we straddle both sides of the theatrical divide in a sense, yeah, in a sense.
Khadifa:Tell me, what came first the writing plays or the working behind the scenes?
Jo:um, I think it was technically writing plays. I started writing, I mean, I started trying to write screenplays and TV episodes, probably from about the age of 14 or 15, like I tried writing scripts for Xena and Star Trek and Casualty and Holby City and all that sort of thing. I think there was actually a competition for a Holby City episode or something that came out, so I tried to do one of those and then that evolved into I was having ideas for all these things coming from all over the place. But I think writing my first play started probably towards the end of my GCSE no, yeah, towards the end of my GCSEs.
Jo:Um, because I had to move schools for A levels very much against my will and, yeah, it was happening around that sort of time I was trying to put stuff. It was also probably around the time I started dealing with the reality of my sexuality. So you know, being yeah, being a Queer in the late, late 90s and early 2000s was a very different experience to what it is now, I imagine you found an outlet in writing.
Khadifa:And then when did you move behind the scenes? How did that come about?
Jo:That happened probably about the age of 18. I actually, after school, when I graduated, I started just helping out part time at the Reading Hexagon, just as a casual uh theatre crew. So I was starting up, sorry, touring shows were coming in and so we'd help set them up for the day, and then we stripped them out again at the end of the night. Um, and then I think Panto was probably the big learning curve, being in there for the whole time, I ditched Blockbusters to go into there for the Christmas period instead. Many, many lessons were learned during that, not necessarily some that were suitable for an 18-year-old at the time, presumed to be a girl. You've got to learn sometimes.
Khadifa:Do you think that's sort of what theater is like a place where you are exposed to sort of so many different things, whether they're appropriate or not, and we could have a debate about that most certainly.
Jo:Yeah, in all sorts of ways, it's the people that you you work with are the ones that are going to teach you the most, and because everyone comes from such different backgrounds, yeah, theatre back then was still very much an old boys club, but it was starting to shift and the only Women that I was really coming across were the stage managers and stuff like that. But the boys, the, the old guys were very welcoming and, again, they taught me plenty, just not always about theatre craft!
Khadifa:Putting that aside, let's stick with theatre craft for a moment.
Khadifa:What was the job that you did, your first theatre job?
Jo:So yeah, it would have been the Reading Hexagon. I guess it would have been, unless you counted at school, but no, Okay,
Khadifa:Where money changed hands.
Jo:Where money started coming into it. Right, that's fine. Yeah, so that would have been the Reading Hexagon At the age of 18. I was between there and Blockbusters for most of my gap year. Before I went on to Uni. I think the first show I did would have been the Oyster Boys or the Oyster Band uh it was. It was a band who were playing that night so we were installing lights and all that sort of thing. I remember the Australian Pink Floyd show came in not long after that one as well, so it was very entertaining in putting in and installing an inflatable kangaroo at the back of the stage in the choir stalls that just sprang out from the curtains about halfway through the show.
Khadifa:So I can see why that would appeal to say an 18-year-old. That's kind of pretty wacky compared, to what most of us were doing
Jo:Yeah, I mean, I did the shop thing as well, very much so. My Blockbuster's boss tried to get me to give up going to Uni in favour of becoming his deputy, and I was like, no, no, why do you think I got out of here so quickly over Christmas? The customers are a pain in the butt.
Khadifa:Look at the way Blockbuster's turned out. Yeah, that was probably sensible.
Jo:And I guess, from there to where I am now, I mean, I've been at the Lion King now for almost seven years and in a sense I'm doing the same thing. I mean I've still got the same title and in a sense I'm doing the same thing. I mean, I've still got the same title I'm a stage crew but it's a whole different set of responsibilities that are essentially the same every night. But then we also get the fun of maintenance, where I'm getting to learn other things and work out how to fix stuff, which is something I do find quite enjoyable.
Khadifa:So not a lot of times in theatre do we get to talk to stage crew and find out what stage crew actually do and how vital they are to the running of a show. Can you just explain briefly what stage crew is, what they do and what they're responsible for?
Jo:Okay. So the majority of what stage crew do is making sure that the right set pieces are in the right place at the right time, depending on the show. There are other bits and pieces, like here we also handle some of the larger puppets and help cast in and out of those or how to handle them. When I was on Sixpence we also technically we had some stage management cues as well, but there's always a slightly squiffy divide between stage management and stage crew, despite what the union sort of tries to put in place for that one.
Khadifa:So when did you first start working as West End stage crew? Do you remember what your first show was?
Jo:My first show was Half a Sixpence. I had been working in fringe theatre until then and happened to come across a young lady called Sarah a couple of times who was coming in with shows to my fringe venue, and we just got talking. We became quite good friends, turns out. We're both Neurodivergent, so that makes a lot of sense why we're still good good friends now. Um, and she was absolutely shocked when she got the job on half a sixpence. Yeah, um, but she's a very friendly sort of person who just chatters away with everyone. And she would happen to be talking to the head of stage one day, just as I think they were just starting previews, and he happened to mention that he needed to hire a crew swing. And she literally just went I know someone and it's like okay, I got a call from the head of stage that night, had an interview two days later and got the job by the end of the day. So it's like wow, that's not how I expected to go about getting my first West End job.
Jo:And again, there was a huge learning curve there because, while I had depped on a couple of West End shows beforehand and so I'd gotten an idea of the atmosphere, actually being a full-time crew member on a big West End performance is a whole different kettle of fish.
Khadifa:Yes, in what way?
Jo:Well, specifically in this one was the fact that I had six plots to learn, including two follow-spot plots. So I was running the two spotlights out the front as well when the two lighting technicians were taking holiday. So that's the whole point of a swing was I was filling in when they were unavailable. So there was also the four stage plots and half the time. Also, it's not just learning how to deal with the things that are on your plot, it's also dealing with the people you're working with, because there are some fantastic characters out there and there's some slightly less fantastic characters out there um, not gonna name any names.
Jo:No, never, gonna name any names. I mean sixpence was great because I was working with a couple of old hands who genuinely were absolute characters, um, and they also sort of introduced me to the uh West End theatre sort of pub spots as well, so got to know plenty of other people from other venues. It's a very tight-knit sort of community, yeah. So it was quite sad when the pandemic hit, seeing that community sort of splinter off and so many people got made redundant who were very unfairly made redundant, and it's completely changed the state of theatre ever since.
Khadifa:Do you think the landscape's recovered or will recover, or is it always going to be forever altered by what happened?
Jo:I think it's always going to be forever altered. We've lost a lot of people, not to death necessarily. A lot of people just came to realise that actually theatre's not worth it. They found another side of life which they had probably been not necessarily avoiding but had not experienced much of um for quite a long time, and so they've taken themselves off in different directions. They found other passions, um, some of them occasionally will come back to dep, but I don't think any of them will be coming back as a full-time theatre tech anymore. Um, and yes, we have got the younger generation coming up, but we've lost a lot of skills in losing those people and those skills aren't being or going to be passed down.
Khadifa:They didn't have the opportunity to do so. Earlier on you were talking about how theatre was quite an accepting place, quite open and different, and you mentioned neurodivergence. Do you think that this is a kind of atmosphere where you can thrive with things like neurodivergence and disability?
Jo:It's certainly a sort of industry that seems to attract neurodivergent people. I think this is something that's only just starting to be realised more and more. In fact, this year I think the Lion King company had a bit of a realisation after, because I was very much struggling with my mental health last year, and so HR were trying to find ways to support me in my neurodivergency. I've now finally been diagnosed so I can actually seek other services, but they were trying to find out what they could do in the meantime, and so they engaged a company who specialise in neurodivergent people in corporate workplaces, and this is part of the problem is that a lot of the support systems that are available have been designed for corporate workplaces, so even things like reasonable accommodations, there's not a massive amount that you can figure out what to do with in theatre, right?
Jo:But that company then came in and did a a couple of presentations with groups throughout the theatre on Neurodivergency, what sort of things to look out for, what sort of symptoms or what sort of traits people experience, and I think there was quite a lot of people sitting there going, oh crap, oh, I've got a few of those just like. Oh, I'd love to know how many people were actually thinking that by the end of it.
Khadifa:But I guess what a way, what a good way of kind of introducing that so people could have that moment of reflection and know, I guess, that as they go on that journey they would be supported ultimately.
Jo:You'd hope so. Yeah, there's still a lot of implementation. I think that needs to go on throughout the theatre industry. I think there's been historically a case of suck it up and get on with it, but I think that's always been the case with many industries it's not just ours so the idea of being looked after by your company is something that's growing. Um, they've just got to figure out the ways to do it, especially with Neurodivergency. It's not something that they've necessarily even thought about before.
Jo:Now a A lot of it is keeping lines of communication open. Um, a lot of my problem was, uh, I was burning out very badly. Part of that was down to the fact that I don't deal well with large groups of people, which, on a production with 200 odd people, is not easy to deal with. So we need to try and sort out places where we can go and sit quietly or do our own thing away from the screaming crazy people that we work with a lot of the time. Um, yeah, keeping communication open is going to be an absolute massive thing.
Jo:Um, because a lot of my problem was that I was keeping it to myself how much I was struggling, and so this the first time they were people were noticing that I was having difficulty was when they found me crying on the stairs or something along those lines, because something had happened, like one particularly loud noise. That wasn't supposed to be there, yeah, and so I wasn't prepared for it and that just tipped me over. Yeah, um, and as much as I would probably be sitting there just trying to calm myself down enough to go and do my next cue, my focus, my brain, was not saying I need to go and tell someone or make someone aware that I'm, yes, struggling so that they can take it over. I have to keep going. Yes, that's what my brain was telling me which theater.
Khadifa:In a strange way, you know, we've been told the show must go on and it's sometimes extremely counterproductive, especially in this day and age where we are, I guess, trying to allow ourselves the grace to kind of be ourselves. Yeah, look after ourselves and, as you say, balance that, balance our we want to still work in theatre, but that we do have to, concessions do have to be made.
Jo:I mean theatre is by nature it's an anti-social industry to work in. I have so many times had my family on the phone like is there any chance you're coming to the family do this weekend? It's like no, I told you I've got work, I don't have enough days left to take off. You didn't give me enough notice to take it off.
Khadifa:Is that's just not the way it works yeah, we take holiday to just do normal weekend functions, don't we? And you're like having to weigh up okay, wedding, birthday party, casual hang, I've only got two days of holiday left. Yes, exactly, so we have to find that. That's one of the downsides of theatre, it's not all perfect. We know that. Do you think it's your biggest downside to it?
Jo:It's a big part of it. Um, there's so many things that I would like to be doing, but unfortunately are scheduled in the evenings, and so the only evenings I have off are Sundays and Mondays. There's not much that happens on Sundays and Monday nights. I used to be if you know me, you probably wouldn't think this, but I'd been part of the parkour community quite heavily over lockdown. Unfortunately, all of their classes are in the evenings or on the mornings of the weekend, which is also when I'm at work,
Khadifa:Do you know, just before lockdown I was the same.
Khadifa:I went back to gymnastics because they had a class on a Monday night, but the problem was if I had done a full week of shows the week before on that day off you were so tired, yeah, the last thing I wanted to do was flipping around on mats and stuff and spinning around.
Khadifa:I was like I'm so tired, yeah, and in the winter, when it's dark, you're like so you're trying desperately to have some kind of hobby or some kind of life, and it's not always easy to do. In addition to working crew on a West End show, you also write.
Jo:In theory.
Khadifa:In theory, do you find this is a place of inspiration and that helps you being in this, in this kind of artistic space?
Jo:I n some senses. Yeah, I mean, I meet a lot of interesting people who maybe nudge me back towards the idea of maybe writing and trying to produce my own stuff. Like yourself, for one, I somehow managed to put together four shortish plays, um, and have the rehearsed reading, and you were very gracious in giving me some pointers and trying to put me in touch with a few people that you thought might be interested in helping out. They sit in the back of my head on a regular basis and I'm thinking I would like to do something with these at some point, but again, my brain is still overwhelmed with everything that's been happening over the last few years. So the most I get done writing wise these days is fan fiction and, to be honest, you can get inspiration for that around here as well.
Khadifa:I think you know it's a release, isn't it? We all have to find a way of releasing and, and I think it's a weird kind of balance of stimulation versus relaxation. Yeah, and I don't always find that I can balance the two when I'm in this building. Yeah, um, as much as I love it.
Jo:Yeah, that's where my particular track has come in handy. It's like I've always not always I started writing fan fiction and I want to say 2019 or something like that, and so I'd be scribbling down a few lines, going and doing a cue, scribbling down a few lines, going and doing the execute, yada, yada, yada, yada this particular track that I'm on now. I actually have some quite sizable gaps in between, so I can do quite a bit of writing, go back on stage, do my track, let things percolate in my brain, and then come down and sit down and do some more writing. There's always a notebook in my pocket or my pouch so I can just note things down. It's probably why I've put up with this track, for so long to be honest, and all the others I did, about a year each.
Jo:It's also the most solitary track out of all of them, so that's probably something to do with it.
Khadifa:So how would you sell crew to people who are interested in a career in theatre but maybe didn't look at crew as a viable option?
Jo:I mean for myself. The thing I like about crew is that you are literally working in the shadows. Um, you will not be seen by the audience, or at least if you are, there's something gone wrong, which does happen occasionally. But it's crew is a very collaborative, uh department. Typically, you get to work quite closely with people, but you get to work quite closely with people from other departments as well. Um, it's not like we're crew.
Jo:The rest of you are scum kind of thing that's the nature of theater and in overall, I suspect, is just that you do get to meet some fantastic people and you get to create a show every night. T hat, if you get the opportunity to watch the audience behind the md on the video screens when that when that elephant's coming down the aisle, it sort of just reminds you every now and again that that's actually what you're doing does have a meaning for the, for more people in the world. In that moment, 2,200 people in the auditorium are seeing your work, even though it's only a small part of what they're watching, and they have no idea that you're there.
Khadifa:Most of them, yes and I think what has been interesting about everyone I've spoken to so far is, despite everything, they always come back to the magic that is, either there's a moment in the show that inspires them or just that feeling of I actually do love what I do. And you mentioned the elephant. Is there another moment in in the show that kind of, or is the elephant it for you?
Jo:The elephant is a major part of it. Um, I admit I do sometimes need to be reminded that what I do is kind of magic, which is where the benefit of giving backstage tours comes in.
Khadifa:Yes.
Jo:Just getting to show people around and everyone says like, oh my God, you work here. This is the Lion King stage. It's quite incredible, I'm trying to think. I mean there's elements of the show which you can actually, when you're doing it over and over again you find your ways of refining the way that you're doing it so that you get it done almost perfectly. So it's taken a while. But things like doing the tree branch, dropping the tree branch in for Simba during the stampede that's quite a notable moment for me, trying to get it down on exactly the right moment and making sure it doesn't bounce um, or trying to get the zebra leg off stage down the sneaky trap door yeah, without people noticing and as quickly as possible. That's usually quite a bit of fun.
Jo:So, yeah, it's silly little bits like that.
Khadifa:I don't think I've ever done a flawless grass skirt change and if I, maybe I have once or twice.
Jo:Those things are rotten.
Khadifa:Yeah, I just want to be able to go hook, hook, hook, hook, bar hook popper done.
Jo:I've only ever undone those things. I dread the idea of doing them up.
Khadifa:But one day. One day I'll get there, yeah, so and lastly, what advice would you give to people that want to come to work in theatre in general? How would you advise that they start?
Jo:I definitely advise talking to your local theatre. If you're outside of London or outside the West End, definitely try your regional theatres, try your community theatres. Get an idea of how they work and if they have any casual positions. That is a great way to find out how theatre works in the first place. Yeah, local theatres are an absolute blessing. The variety of productions that you can get in local theatre is pretty wild.
Jo:Um, even like above pub fringe theatres I, I worked, I was the technical manager of one of them for about two years and just, it's the tiny, one of the tiniest theatres in the world, and yet if you can get four people on the stage, you can produce almost anything. Yeah, I'd just say go and see as much theatre. Yeah, and just talk to the management and see if they do have any of those backstage jobs. Even going in as an usher for a little while definitely helps. Just be willing to try stuff out.
Khadifa:Well, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me. This was lovely, great, and thanks for sharing your story.
Jo:No, you're welcome.
Khadifa:Thank you so much to my Lion King contributors, to Michael, to Patience, to Shennika and Joe. I really appreciate your time and just your openness and willingness to have a conversation with me and to launch this podcast. We will be having new episodes every fortnight for the first season, so I hope you will join us for our next episode. Thank you so much for listening.
